In the summer of 2022, Terry Gilliam and Leah Hausman staged Stephen Sondheim’s Into The Woods at the Bath Theatre Royal. Shortly after the run completed, Gilliam spoke with Phil Stubbs about how it went…
Click here for many photographs from both the rehearsal and from the final production
Phil Stubbs: I went to see Into The Woods in Bath… I wasn’t expecting to like it, because I’ve never been a big admirer of Sondheim’s music. But I loved it! How have you found the music?
Terry Gilliam: Well, the more you listen to it, the more you get into it. The first time I saw Into The Woods – the Richard Jones version that was in the West End – I was blown away by it. I couldn’t remember most of the songs but I took away: be careful what stories you tell your children. But working on it, the songs really start getting into you. And I think Into The Woods has more interesting and memorable songs than a lot of his other stuff. I just think there’s so much joy within it.
My granddaughter is six years old, and I brought her to see it. And at the end of it, she was singing, not just the Into The Woods song, but the lyrics of “The woods are just trees, the trees are just wood”. That lyric just stuck in a six year old mind, and she just kept singing it. But now it’s been two months since we finished it, and I’ve forgotten the songs. It’s not like Rogers and Hammerstein!
What were the origins of you working on it? Tell me how it all started.
Well, John Berry was running ENO when I did two operas there. At the end of the second opera, he said, “Have you ever thought of doing a musical?” And I said, “No, not really. But I hadn’t thought of doing operas before you asked me to do that either!”
He asked, “What would you like to do?” I said, “I don’t know, but I liked the production of Into The Woods I’d seen.” I thought that would be a great one to try. That was over four years ago! So it’s been over four years I’ve been on the project. John said yes, let’s go. And then it just went round and round in circles. Who’s going to be in it? What theatre?
We did this long dance, and at one point Catherine Zeta-Jones wanted to play the Witch. It was coming and going nowhere, not coming to a conclusion until we went to the Old Vic, who were keen on it, and liked our ideas. I love the Old Vic as a theatre. The first time I went in there and walked on that stage. I said, this is it, it’ll work here.
Then we had our little contretemps with them, and we were out. And that delayed things for about nine months.
How much work had been done when the Old Vic cancelled?
We had the designs, we had a cast. We hadn’t done costumes though. But we had started to work on them. We were ready, we were flying. And then the children that now run the Old Vic, apparently, took charge. It was the twelve children they brought in to make sure it was safe.
Was there a contract between John Berry’s company and the Old Vic?
Yeah, it was all contractual, the deal was done. So we all have contracts with the cast, Leah and myself. It cost the Old Vic a lot of money to cancel the show, I think. I’ve got a figure like 50,000 tickets had already been sold. That’s a lot of money to refund!
I think it’s probably a result of that guilt for having Kevin Spacey involved as long as he was, that was part of it. I don’t know what the numbers were but to cancel that show was a costly business for them.
So John and his company weren’t out of pocket. They had their costs reimbursed?
No, they were out of pocket as well. I don’t know what the numbers were. Luckily, Bath picked us up immediately.
How was the run at Bath secured?
Well, John Berry went fishing as soon as it looked like the Old Vic was going to behave as they did. Luckily for just logistic reasons, the Royal Theatre in Bath has a stage a similar size to the Old Vic – so we didn’t have to alter our designs much at all to accommodate the move.
I’ve never been to the Old Vic, but I’d imagined it to be bigger than Bath.
Well, it had certain things similar to the Old Vic. We were able to remove the facades of the boxes at the Old Vic to the other side of the stage. We didn’t change the design, but it was much more limited in what we could do. We couldn’t move around the way we had planned. So we had to alter what we were doing in the staging.
Now you were working again with Leah Hausman. Can you tell me about how your collaboration with Leah has developed over the three projects you have worked with her on – are you working together instinctively?
We just balance each other very well. Her skills and mine are different. Unlike with filmmaking, when I’m right there with the camera and the actors.
I work with Leah because her experience in staging and moving people around is so much superior to mine. So I can sit back in the stalls and say “No please, move a little bit that way…”
We work very, very easily together. We seldom disagree. She’s great with the actors. She is happy to talk for hours on text, subtext and characters – whereas I’m casting people for instinctive reasons and I think they are right for the part. So I just get on and do the work. She’s got more patience with the actors that I do!
The cast… my perception was that everyone was strong.
You’ve got it! To me, that was the most interesting part… We’d been through casting ideas for a very long time, and then rejected all of the ideas at our casting sessions. There were more than there would normally have been. And there were so many great people that turned up.
Let’s take Rhashan Stone who plays the baker. What I had in mind was a kind of Matthew Broderick little nerdy character. And in walks Rhashan, a tall, buff, good looking black guy: not at all what I had in mind. I then suggested a couple of things to him, what I really thought the character should be like, and he transformed himself immediately. This was in the audition, and just made me howl with laughter, how good a transformation he had done. I said you’re on, you’ve got the job. It was very simple. So that was that was part of the fun in the casting, my preconceptions were constantly being altered or forgotten because somebody would come in and do it in a way that I couldn’t have imagined it.
And Lauren Conroy, who plays Red Riding Hood. When she came in, she was a very inexperienced kid. This was her big break and she came in with her Scottish accent. That part suddenly came alive as far as I was concerned, she was a prim little Scots girl. Her teachers had told her the right path to follow, as did her mother as well. And suddenly she’s on the cusp of puberty, she meets a wolf and off we went!
Maria Conneely, who played Rapunzel. Here came in a beautiful blonde girl and perfect for the role. She did the scene when she confronts her witch mother, after she’s been abandoned, thrown off into desert and gone mad. She played it with this laughter that was so unbelievably wonderful coming from this beautiful girl. I said, that’s the way to play that part. She got the part. Next!
Casting was interesting, but you realise how many really talented people are out there queuing up to be in the business, and how few jobs are available, especially in theatre. The pay is so bad, yet the commitment is total! I was really impressed with these people – much more than film people!
Now let’s talk about Milky White, about whom we could talk for the entire duration of this call. Milky White was offering a commentary on what was happening on the stage. So if somebody did something daft, we would see a head movement from the cow to say, “What’s this guy doing?” Where did that come from?
It all came from Faith Prendergast who played Milky White. She is a complete and utter genius. That cow costume was very uncomfortable, hot, a difficult thing to wear, yet she brought it completely to life. She was to be a real, extraordinary surprise to me. I thought this would be fun to play. When I’ve seen Into The Woods before, the cow was often a wooden cut-out cow on wheels that’s tugged around.
But I said no, let’s make Milky White Jack’s best friend. They’re buddies. This is the way to play this character and give it a character as opposed to being an object for a daft kid to drag around.
And Faith was so extraordinary. I love her in the song between the baker and his wife, “It Takes Two,” when slowly their relationship is coming together against this romantic dance together. Faith was so funny. In fact, I think we toned her down too much. What she used to do, she would be there and she’s at the beginning when she just kind of “No, not this mawkish romantic shit, goes and gets over to other side, tapping her feet impatiently. She was even funnier, she was so bored with them. And then as the song develops, she starts getting into it, start tapping her feet and wiggling her ass, and it was so unbelievably funny. What’s there is still wonderful, but it was even funnier before we reduced it down a little bit.
I would say put it back in!
Yeah, I know. It’s just that she stole the show in so many ways. It’s just so much fun to play with her as a character. It was such a free-spirited character, and it was all Faith’s creation. We didn’t have to direct her at all except doing fewer wonderful things.
The Milky White costume – the cow is a push-up cow. It stands erect when left alone, and when it’s pushed, it goes all floppy. It was just one of the child’s toys and household objects that ended up as giant elements on stage.
I was very pleased with that, we could have been even more definite about all the characters. We’re cheating – at one minute they’re toys yet they all have their own lives. You’d be quite separate from the little girls whatever she’s doing and that’s… I didn’t want to get trapped in to them all being her, that she could control them all.
With respect to the costumes, was there much work to be done on the costumes for Bath or was it all pretty much there?
Antony McDonald and I did a lot of work together. Things kept changing. Some of it was his original concept, so that was it – done. Others like the Witch started out being much more like a traditional witch. But the first time I saw Nicola in the costume I decided she should be more like a bag woman, a really sad creature who is just stuffing her pockets and that’s why we eventually gave her little trowels, and little forks a gardener would use, to use as her weapons.
We had to trim down the stepsisters and mother – their paniers in particular. The originally-designed paniers were much more correct to the 18th century. But they were just too big for the set. So we had a trim to let things like that down. It’s basically Anthony’s design in all instances.
On the opening night you apologised to the audience for what might go wrong. And did anything go wrong?
No, no, no. I just did that to make the audience stay awake.
Was it really tense and stressed in the run-up to opening night or was it relaxed?
It was pretty relaxed. I think we had had enough rehearsal time. We did a lot of it without the sets. Always when you’re opening you realise you need another couple more days. Lighting problems, and scenes not working properly. Most of our rehearsals were done in Clapham and we only got down to Bath about a week and a bit before. And suddenly you’ve got all the things that don’t work quite as you had hoped they would work, but that’s just standard – nothing new there!
What discussions did you have with Stephen Sondheim?
Well, I only had a couple of conversations. Strangely enough. I met him years ago when the film of Into The Woods was first being talked about, and they wanted me to direct it… but I hated the script. It had been rewritten for the film by a couple of people who are very good comic writers, but they had no sense of magic. I met Sondheim then. I liked him and then more recently we had a Zoom call at the beginning of this whole thing. And the main thing I said to him was that I just want to surprise you. I want you to see something you’ve never seen before. And he loved that idea. He’d seen so many different productions. And he wanted to be surprised, but sadly he died before we could show him our surprise.
I think he died soon after the Old Vic cancelled the show.
I don’t think there was a direct connection there.
Correlation, not causation! What was there an opportunity to find out what he thought about the Old Vic decision?
No, not at all.
And how faithful to the music and lyrics have you been?
Totally. This is the thing with a Sondheim/Lapine musical – they are really on top of it and you can’t change the words, you can’t change the songs, so we moved things around a little bit. We put things in slightly different positions, but it is basically as written. I changed the meaning of some of the dialogue and even the lyrics and songs. You can change the effect of them, by what actually is happening.
This is the first thing I said to Sondheim and Lapine when we first talked, that I was cutting the baker’s father character out, because I always thought it was ridiculous. I said you’ve got one guy playing the narrator, the baker’s father and the mysterious man. I just thought it was always messy stuff. So I conflated those three characters into one. And that one was going to be Death. And that’s what we did.
Is the West End staging on the cards?
We’re still waiting for a theatre, that’s the big problem. Yes, there’s such a backlog because of Covid, there are productions that had to be stalled. But I don’t know when we’re going to get into the West End.
Looking back at Into The Woods, what are its themes that most resonate with you?
Well, be careful what stories you tell your children! That one really gets to me. I think that’s the big thing for me. “Children Will Listen,” so be careful what you tell them. That is what sticks in my mind from the original version. We changed the intention of things, for example, “No One Is Alone”. That song is normally sung by all of them huddled together in turn and we changed it and made it a little more aggressive, with them trying to get ready to kill a giant.
Here’s what we’ve done that nobody in all of the other productions had done before… normally the killing of the giant, the death of the baker’s wife, Rapunzel’s death all take place offstage. I think we’re the first production to bring them centre stage. And that’s a big shift because to me, it was funny. I just wanted the kids to be much more involved in the killing of the giant.
There’s closure at the end of the first half. There were some empty seats in the second half. I’m convinced that they thought it was over at that point.
It’s true, they did! That’s what happened on the first night. So we then made it clear after that… you’ve only had half your money’s worth, folks! There’s more to come!
What’s interesting about that is that everybody assumes the initial first night audiences are going to be Sondheim fans. And Sondheim fans know that it isn’t the end. But what we were getting in the audience were people that had never heard of Stephen Sondheim before.
There were some Sondheim fans in the audience and they gave you the thumbs up, from the people we were talking to anyway. But there would also have been some Bath regulars who may not be musical buffs.
I was sitting in the audience every night just to see and understand who these people are. The audiences were amazing because they went from 6-year-old kids up to 90-year-olds and what happened every single night, they ended with a standing ovation, every night. That was incredible, I couldn’t believe it. And I would sit behind in the audience. One night there’s a guy with his two daughters there. One was, I don’t know, ten years old. The other was probably 12 or 13. He had never had never been to a theatre for a long time, maybe never. I don’t know why they came, maybe for the idea of seeing an ex-Python do something. They weren’t just serious theatre goers. There were all sorts of people.
My 13-year-old son came along, plus my niece and my brother too. The children really enjoyed what they’d seen.
Yep, that’s one thing I really like about it: Sondheim’s so clever. I mean the lyrics I think are brilliant beyond belief. I think we managed to do the musical in such a way that it appeals to so many different people in so many different ways. And there was one night that James Lapine was in the audience. He takes a very, very serious interest in all productions of his work. The cast was aware of that. But they started overplaying everything, working too hard. I thought, “Oh my God, we’ve done a pantomime!”
We have taken it from something that was intellectual, and turned it into something that was just a rollicking night at the theatre. I was very pleased!
Now, Sight & Sound did a 100 best films poll. Number one surprised me. I’ve not seen it. Have you seen Jeanne Dielman?
Ms Akerman’s film? No, I’ve never seen it either. It’s the first time I’ve heard about it now that I’ve got my new Sight & Sound. I’m trying to find a way to see it, to see this great movie… but it’s a shock that it seems to have come out of nowhere. What is going on? It may be a great film but you don’t just suddenly come out of nowhere. Boom! Ends up at number one like that… unless everybody has gone doolally, reappraising every film they’ve seen that they looked at in a wrong way, that we’ve looked at from a male perspective. I’m keen to see it because I’m curious. It’s got Delphine Seyrig in the lead part, and I could watch any film with her in. But in the top 100, there are no Buñuel films at all.
He’s dropped out!
It’s like he no longer exists. That really shocked me. Now Lina Wertmüller is a genius, but she’s not in there. She was Fellini’s assistant for many years, then she went off on her own. Her most famous film is Swept Away which Madonna remade. Lina Wertmüller is a great, great filmmaker. Yet when they talk about female directors, they never seem to mention her. That’s why I find there’s such sloppiness out there. When the critics say the greatest 100 films ever made and they leave Luis Buñuel out, I don’t know how that’s possible.
Time Bandits the TV series I understand is filming now. Have you any involvement with that?
I have excised myself from it, because what I discovered late in the day, well, I have to be careful about this but I had assumed it was going to be done as I made the film. And what was important for me in the film was that the guys, the bandits, who take Kevin on journeys are the same size as him. But they’re not in this one. So this is a collection of ordinary-sized people. There seems to be a shortage of dwarves in it!
It would seem to be an integral part.
It was certainly an integral part of my Time Bandits. But it’s not a part of the Taika Waititi Time Bandits. Jack Purvis’s granddaughter did a TikTok video just saying how shocked she was by the fact that dwarves were not included, and she thought it was a complete betrayal. Her TikTok was picked up by Newsweek magazine. There was a good size article about it.
I don’t know how the TV series will be greeted. If it brings more attention back to the original film and people watch the original film, that might be a good thing.
Is The Defective Detective on the table anywhere?
I’m not sure which table it’s on at the moment. I was just talking Richard LaGravenese yesterday about it. There’s a couple ideas floating around about how to revive it, but I’m not sure.
And you have a project about God. What do you think is the probability that it will be filmed?
I don’t know. But it’s not just about God…
Tell me more…
It’s called Carnival at the End of Days and God decides to wipe out humanity because they made such a mess of his garden. There’s only one character that is trying to stop this from happening, and it’s Satan. Because without humanity, he’s not got a job. And that’s the structure of the whole thing. But it’s not about religion, it’s about the world we’re living it now. It deals with the madness that’s going on all around us in the culture wars. I actually set out when we started writing it, I just want to offend so many people. So I don’t know when and how we’ll get it off.
But that offence will mean that many money people may turn away.
Of course, it’s sort of a test to see if there are any thinking people out there, because the people involved in the culture wars are really only the very small minority of the general population. And every time I do or say something that gets me in trouble, I get even more people agreeing with me than against me! I do it because I’m old enough to put my head above the parapet. My head was designed for that!
I just try to say things that are either funny or truthful, and try to encourage other people to do the same. I don’t do things in a hateful way it, I’m not against anybody. But I am against closed-mindedness and dogmatic thinking.
Well somebody can say you’re talking rubbish Terry, and that’s fine… but if somebody says you can’t say that Terry, then there’s a problem.
There is a problem for that person, not for me! Because I will keep saying it. And that’s the problem. I just think there’s absolute madness afoot these days and things are not being thought out in a common sense way. I know you’re not supposed to say “common sense”, but people are so frightened!
